For nearly a decade, Philadelphia advocate Janet White has worked to end horse-drawn carriage rides in the city. She isn’t a lawyer or a career lobbyist. She started as a concerned citizen who saw horses standing in traffic and decided to do something about it.
In this episode, Janet shares how her advocacy evolved from street protests to drafting legislation, collaborating with experts, and ultimately proposing a practical alternative that changed the political conversation. Her story is a case study in persistence, strategic thinking, and the power of bringing solutions—not just objections—to policymakers.
Whether your issue is carriage horses, shelter overcrowding, or another entrenched practice, this conversation offers a roadmap for moving from protest to policy.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
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Why Janet chose a total ban instead of incremental welfare reforms
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How veterinary science and expert collaboration strengthened the case
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What role public safety and city liability play in legislative debates
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Why drafting model legislation makes you more effective with lawmakers
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How the “ban-and-replace” model reframed the conversation
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What advocates can learn about persistence, credibility, and timing
Key Takeaway
If you’re asking lawmakers to end a long-standing practice, moral arguments alone won’t carry the day. Effective advocacy requires facts, strategy, and a workable alternative that makes it easier for decision-makers to say yes.
Episode Highlights
00:00 – What it really takes to push for a legislative ban on a decades-old practice
01:18 – How a personal concern turned into a focused advocacy campaign
04:09 – The role of street protests and public education in long-term change
06:35 – Founding Carriage Horse Freedom and identifying all stakeholders
09:29 – Drafting model legislation and learning from Chicago and Salt Lake City
11:21 – Why veterinary data — not emotion — anchored the strategy
12:30 – The scientific case for a total ban over incremental welfare reforms
14:15 – Public safety risks, runaway accidents, and city liability
16:45 – Introducing electric carriages and the “ban-and-replace” solution
18:52 – Why a formal ban is still necessary, even if carriages disappear
20:14 – What advocates can learn about persistence, credibility, and strategic framing
Transcript
Penny Ellison:
What does it take to get a city to ban a practice that’s been around for decades? Today’s guest has spent 9 years trying to figure that out. She’s not a lawyer, she’s not a lobbyist. She’s an animal lover from Philadelphia who saw horses pulling carriages through city streets and decided she was going to do something about it. And what she did is a masterclass in smart, persistent, creative advocacy.
Welcome to The Animal Advocate, where we arm animal lovers with the information and inspiration you need to become effective advocates. I’m your host, Penny Ellison, and I’ve taught animal law and advocacy at the University of Pennsylvania since 2006. If you’ve ever thought, “Someone should do something about that,” I’m here to guide you on your journey to being that someone. You can find us on the web at animaladvocacyacademy.com. And that’s where you’ll find show notes and resources, and you can send us your comments on episodes and ideas for topics you’d like to hear on future shows. So, onto today’s topic.
So horse-drawn carriages. If you’ve ever been to a city that has them, you’ve probably seen the horses standing in traffic, heads down, pulling tourists in the heat or the cold. Maybe you felt bad for them. Maybe you thought somebody should do something about that. Well, today’s guest is that somebody. Janet White is the founder of Carriage Horse Freedom. An organization dedicated to ending horse-drawn carriage rides in Philadelphia. And her story has lessons for every advocate, regardless of your issue.
Here’s what I want you to listen for in this conversation. First, Janet didn’t come to this with any special credentials or connections. She started where a lot of us start, seeing a practice she believed was wrong and wondering what she could do about it. Second, she’s been at this for 9 years, and she hasn’t given up. Persistence is a necessary part of this job. Laws don’t change overnight, and neither does public opinion. Third, and this is the part I think is really brilliant, when legislators pushed back on what would replace the carriage experience for tourists, Janet didn’t just argue that that wasn’t necessary. She came up with an alternative that completely changed the conversation.
You’re going to want to hear how she did that. And fourth, Janet doesn’t argue from emotion. Everything she advocates for is backed by science, and she’ll tell you why that matters and how it shaped her strategy. Whether your issue is carriage horses or shelter overcrowding or anything else, I think you’re going to find a lot to take away from this conversation. One quick heads up, you’re going to hear some train noise in the background of this interview.
Janet is in Philadelphia, and if you know Philly, you know the Frankford El waits for no one. So consider it local flavor. Let’s get into it.
Penny Ellison:
Welcome, Janet. It’s really great to have you.
Janet White:
Thank you, Penny. It’s great to be here.
Penny Ellison:
So I want to talk to you because I think you have kind of a unique story as an advocate.
Penny Ellison:
You know, you’re not a lawyer, but you’re a powerful and effective advocate. And you’ve picked an issue that’s a little bit different, something that I haven’t talked about on the podcast yet, and that’s, you know, horse-drawn carriages. So, um, I want to talk to you a little bit about your journey as an advocate and how you got started, because I think a lot of us look at horses pulling carriages and kind of feel bad for them. I used to have a horse when I was young, and I, you know, you can see that their posture is often telling the story of, you know, even though they might be getting enough food or the basics, they look very sort of depressed and unhappy. So can you tell me how you sort of chose this issue to get so deeply involved in?
Janet White:
Yeah, well, I grew up in Philadelphia, and ever since I was a child, I’d see the horse-drawn carriages in Center City, and it always bothered me because They looked to me to be overworked and dejected and sad, and I just felt bad for them. And I didn’t really know what to do about it. But when I got a little older, I, about 10 years ago actually, I found a group of activists who were out there protesting against the horse-drawn carriages. And I decided I wanted to learn more about the issue. And then I joined in with them in some street protests. And I felt at least like I was doing something to protest what I thought was a very cruel practice.
Penny Ellison:
Did you think those protests were effective? Did you talk to people who were thinking about taking a carriage ride and decided not to?
Janet White:
Yeah, these protests had been going on for many years. And in fact, I mean, the horse carriages were introduced in 1976 for the bicentennial. As a type of tourism. So they were controversial from the very start. And I learned that there were many groups over the years that were— individuals and groups that were protesting that practice and who were actually very effective. So I believe the street protests are essential. I think they’re a part of the advocacy effort, but I think they’re a critical part of it.
Penny Ellison:
Well, the public education part, I guess, because there are a lot of people that you know, haven’t been exposed and they’re here as a tourist and they think that the horses are, you know, enjoying it. And I know when I see people sometimes, not lately, we’ll talk about that, but I used to see, you know, 5 people in a carriage or something and it looked like an awful lot to be pulling.
Janet White:
Yeah, they’re actually allowed by city law to pull up to 6 people. But no, absolutely. The protests really were largely about raising public awareness distributing literature, talking with people, you know, trying to keep it positive as far as, you know, not just out there, you know, fist in the air, but really effective in terms of communicating with people and trying to educate them about why this practice is wrong.
Penny Ellison:
And so you made some progress with street protests, but you had to do more than that. So what was your next step?
Janet White:
In 2017, I decided to start my own group. Because I thought that from what I was learning, and I’m still learning, I believe that there— it was a big issue. It was— there’s many parts to the issue. And so it seemed to me that it wasn’t just about protesting against carriage companies. It was, you know, looking at what’s involved as far as all the stakeholders involved. And it’s complex because it involves businesses, not just the carriage companies, but the tourism industry in Philadelphia, you know, tourism marketing, of course, all the city officials that are involved. It’s complicated. And so I decided I wanted to look at the issue holistically and try to address the different parts of it.
Janet White:
And I knew there was a lot I had to learn. So that’s why I turned to different people who are very knowledgeable to try to get more information and, you know, advance in terms of talking with people who, who really are the decision makers in all this. And the name of your organization is Carriage Horse Freedom.
Penny Ellison:
Okay, so, so you started your own organization, and what was interesting in what you said there is it sounds as if you did not take a militant, we just want to ban this practice. You realize that there might be objections from people who are— whose livelihoods depend on this, and you decided that instead of just fight for a ban, you would try to figure out who all the stakeholders were and sort of respond to those objections?
Janet White:
Yeah, and I, I, I realized it was a complex issue, so I knew there was a lot I needed to learn, and I wanted to get as much information as I could. So I reached out to, for instance, a government relations attorney I worked with, and I also reached out to some academics. For instance, at Thomas Jefferson University, there was a program there that I got involved with. And we— I worked with them on some of the graduate students on this issue. They did a case study.
Penny Ellison:
So now you have your organization, you hired a government relations attorney, right?
Janet White:
Yes.
Penny Ellison:
And what did he help you do?
Janet White:
Well, he was someone who had worked with city government, and so he was familiar with a lot of the people who were involved in terms of city council members and other city officials and state officials who would be people we would want to talk with to talk about the issue, to find out, you know, what they know about it or what they could do about it, you know, talk about what would be involved in seeking a ban and ban legislation. So, you know, he was someone who could help make introductions to some of these people. He helped me in presenting my ideas, and he had a lot of great ideas and, um, you know, helped with, uh, drafting a strategy for our initiative. And, uh, he drafted some ban horse carriage legislation, which we presented to city council members, which, uh, I think was really helpful for them to see, you know, how this could be shaped.
Penny Ellison:
That’s, that’s very interesting. And I always like to point out sort of the advocacy lessons in there, because there were There were a couple. One was getting some knowledgeable help with some connections. Another was you drafted something and gave it to city council instead of just telling them, I want you to do something about this. You said, here’s a bill that I think would work. So I think that’s a great lesson. Have there been bans in other cities? Did you have any models to look at?
Janet White:
Exactly. Oh yes, there have been bans in other cities. In fact, we were working specifically looking at the Chicago ban example and also the Salt Lake City example. They were two different types of examples, models. One was based on animal welfare and one was based more on a business model. So, you know, those were ideas we drew from and, you know, working with legislation that actually had passed and, you know, just making a few changes. And we also, not only was I working with this attorney, but we were working with a very prominent equine veterinarian named Holly Cheever, who reviewed things as well. And she made suggestions.
Janet White:
For instance, instead of just saying banning horse-drawn carriages, she thought it was very important to make it animal-drawn carriages, because it really, there are places where they use mules. You know, there are other equines. So just to, you know, again, to provide as much protection as possible for the animals.
Penny Ellison:
And then with her input, you had scientific background for the recommendations that you’re making.
Janet White:
Oh, well, all of my advocacy is based on the veterinary data. Absolutely. That’s the bottom line. Because to me, that’s the whole foundation of this whole movement. You have to know what you’re talking about. It all has to do with the equine, rather the veterinary data. You know, you had to prove, you know, is, why is this harmful? You know, why should it be banned? You know, not just saying, oh, it’s, it’s cruel, you know, or it’s, you know, you have to be, give specific veterinary data as to why this should be banned.
Penny Ellison:
And that’s, that’s a very important advocacy.
Penny Ellison:
Sort of decision point there too, because you were advocating for a ban and I think a lot of, um, a lot of practices that animal advocates think hould be changed, you have that decision point where you’re trying to say, I want to be realistic about what I’m seeking, but should I be asking just to make it a little safer, like a welfare provision that would say, well, maybe we should lower the maximum temperature that they can be out there or lower the number of hours that they can be out there. But I don’t think you ever went that direction, right? You just said it should be banned.
Janet White:
Right. And the reason for that is, again, based on the veterinary data, it was very clear. And in fact, even before that, there were, there were changes to the Philadelphia code years ago as far as so-called welfare improvements.
Penny Ellison:
They had like maximum temperature they can be out there.
Janet White:
Yeah. Right. So that, that was lowered a few years back. So, you know, there were incremental changes, but looking at other cities and based on the veterinary data, We strongly believe that welfare so-called improvements are not enough. The practice is harmful. Whether you lower the max temperature a few degrees, it really doesn’t make a difference. It’s the problem is the practice. So it’s not just about temperatures or certain details.
Janet White:
It’s the fact is that the practice itself is just, it’s unsustainable.
Penny Ellison:
You can’t change things like the road surface itself. You know, you can’t change things that they’re in traffic.
Janet White:
You can’t change that. You can’t change the effect that the extreme temperatures have on these animals physiologically. You know, those kind of things, there’s nothing you can do about it. You can say, well, they can’t be out there above 90 degrees, but even 90, again, the vet data says it’s not just the ambient temperature. You know, you have to look at the humidity and the, you know, combined temperature and the humidity and all of that affects them. So, you know, the fact that they’re very close to the asphalt, you know, the heat, you know, the, what the heat they’re experiencing is much greater than what we are experiencing. So those kind of factors come into play.
Penny Ellison:
This is another one of those issues also where you don’t necessarily have to advocate just because of the animals. You don’t have to appeal to a legislator’s love of animals because this is a human welfare issue as well and a human safety issue, right?
Janet White:
Oh, absolutely. I think they go hand in hand. The animal welfare issue for us is the most important, but of course, just as important are the public safety issues involved. And because there are so many accidents, there are so, you know, the point of these animals are prey animals. So what happens is when they get spooked, so to speak, they get startled, oftentimes they will just by instinct, they’ll bolt. And then there are accidents. And this happens very frequently. It’s happened in Philadelphia with serious consequences.
And it happens all the time in cities where these are used. So, yeah, absolutely. We always point that out. It’s partly, it’s an animal welfare issue. Partly it’s a public safety issue. And also the city has to consider the fact of, you know, possible litigation when there are accidents. And they’re inevitable. That’s just the nature of the horse-drawn carriage practice.
Penny Ellison:
For sure. So let’s talk about your journey then. So in 2017, you started your own organization. So that’s 9 years ago now as of this recording. Tell me how you’re— and you drafted the bill. What happened from there?
Janet White:
We presented it to a city council member who was very involved in— this is his district. And we presented it to some other city council members. Essentially what we were told, this was back in probably 2018 into 2020, kind of the pandemic was a bit of an interruption, but essentially what I was told was, well, you know, can you provide a, or suggest or provide a viable alternative to the carriages, horse-drawn carriages, you know, because there are businesses involved. So I did a lot of research at the time, 2018, I was seeing that these so-called electric horseless carriages were starting to be used in cities around the world, but not yet in the US. So I did a lot of research. I connected with— they’re called e-carriages— electric carriage designers, operators in different countries. And we had many meetings with council members and different organizations in Philadelphia and beyond. And the idea was, well, maybe we could bring one over here for a city demo.
And that was in process for coming from another country when the pandemic hit and things were interrupted. But essentially, once things calmed down after the pandemic, there was a company in the U.S. that started using electric carriages, and I wanted to find out more about them and how things were going. So I visited them in early 2023, and I saw the carriages being used there, and it was just amazing., and I knew this was going to, this could work very well in Philadelphia. So from there I had the opportunity to purchase one and I got some assistance from a local foundation, Antorus Foundation, who’s been extremely supportive of our initiative. And, uh, and that’s, so we brought it up here. We did a lot of work on it, modified it and debuted it in the Independence Day Parade in Philadelphia in 2023.
Penny Ellison:
And it went over big.
Janet White:
Oh, it’s amazing. We call the carriage Caroline, and we named it after Caroline Earle White, who was a 19th century Philadelphia animal advocate who, uh, especially was concerned with the carriage horses at that time. So we named it in her honor, Caroline E. Carriage.
Penny Ellison:
And, um, well, you know, I love that because she founded a lot of organizations around here, including the Pennsylvania SPCA and, and the American Anti-Vivisection Society. I might do— I think I’m going to do a podcast just on her as an inspirational advocate.
Janet White:
Oh, she’s an extraordinary person. So, yeah, so we put the carriage out there. It was— it got rave reviews. People loved it. And we knew it was going to be something that could really work for Philadelphia. So ever since, you know, it’s been in all the big parades, it’s expanding our operations. And, you know, we really are very excited about it.
Penny Ellison:
That’s, that’s great. So now you have a practical alternative to propose to, all the other tourist organizations that are around Old City that want to see, want to make sure that there is something there to bring tourists in. So, so what’s been happening with the horses? I know I haven’t seen them at 6th and Market in a long time.
Janet White:
What I know is that my understanding is that in early 2023 It seemed like the last horse carriage company in the city sold their stables property to a developer, and they kind of ceased operations. And as far as I know, there’s no horse carriage companies operating in Philadelphia at this time.
Penny Ellison:
No, I certainly haven’t seen them. So does that mean that you don’t need your ban because you effectively got rid of them anyway?
Janet White:
No, absolutely not. We definitely need the ban. Because there’s no saying that other companies— that company or other companies couldn’t start up in Philadelphia, start up again, or start up as a new company. So I think it’s essential that there be a ban on the horse carriages so that doesn’t, you know, again, become a thing again somewhere along the line, someone decides to, you know, start up.
Penny Ellison:
But you’ve made great strides, and I think that your advocacy is a lesson in persistence, and not just persistence, but creativity, coming up with an alternative, understanding.that the legislators kind of, they have to listen to everyone and there are going to be business owners that are against it. So instead of just, you know, trying to win that tug of war, you came up with a solution and I think it’s amazing.
Janet White:
Thank you. What we’re promoting is the so-called ban-replacm odel, which is
Penny Ellison:
Yes, tell me about that.
Janet White:
Yeah, it’s really the international trend now, which is, and I think it’s a win-win solution. So, essentially, municipalities are encouraged to ban the horse carriages, and many of them really want to for various reasons, but also to replace them with electric carriages. So what we’re finding is that, and what we’re promoting, is numerous cities now are, city governments are working with their carriage companies to try to, you know, help them with the transition because really the horse-drawn carriage companies or that industry is it’s a dying industry. The younger people really, the statistics show that most or many younger people are not interested in that.
Penny Ellison:
So like horse racing, you know, right?
Janet White:
What we’re seeing is that many governments now, city governments, are working with their carriage companies to try to help them in a transition so that people don’t have to lose jobs. It can be just sort of a transition from the old industry to the new industry. Which is electric carriages.
Penny Ellison:
So, you know— Which I would think would be a more effective business model. I mean, horses are not cheap to take care of.
Janet White:
Right, exactly. So like one city, for example, is San Antonio. They banned the horse carriages, and they’re now trying to work with their carriage companies to make that transition over the course of a few years. So, you know, I do think this is the wave of the future. Pretty much like inevitable, I think, because the horse carriages are sort of on their way out just in terms of, you know, popularity and sustainability. All right.
Penny Ellison:
Well, well, thank you, Janet. I appreciate learning about this, and I appreciate you giving all of the podcast listeners an example of how you can really make a difference by choosing your issue and focusing and being fact and scientific based and staying the course. So Thank you so much.
Janet White:
Thank you very much.
Penny Ellison:
I hope Janet’s story of advocacy fired you up the way it fires me up, because it really is proof that you don’t need a law degree or political connections to make real change. You need to care, you need to learn, and you need to keep going. I want to come back to Janet’s ban and replace approach because I think it’s one of the most practical advocacy strategies out there, and it applies to much more than carriage horses. Whenever you’re asking a legislator to end a practice, the first question you’re going to hear is, what about the people whose livelihoods depend on it? If you don’t have an answer, the conversation might just stop right there. But if you come to the table with a workable alternative, the way Janet came up with an electric carriage, you’ve just made it a whole lot easier for that legislator to say yes. You’ve turned a fight into a solution. So whatever your issue is, think about where you could apply that same thinking.
Don’t just say stop. Say, here’s something better. And if you’re listening to Janet’s story and thinking, I want to do something like that, but I don’t know where to start. That’s exactly why I created the Four Cs of Legislative Advocacy for Animals. It’s a free private podcast series where I walk you through the four principles that every successful animal advocacy campaign has in common. The strategies Janet used, they map right onto this framework. So head to animaladvocacyacademy.com/fourcs. Four Cs, F-O-U-R-C-S, and sign up to get access. It’s a series of 5 episodes, each under 10 minutes, that get delivered to your inbox every other day, and it’ll give you a real roadmap for turning your passion for animals into legislative action. I’ll see you next week. That’s it for today.
Penny Ellison:
The Animal Advocate podcast is brought to you by the Animal Advocacy Academy. You can find episodes and show notes at animaladvocacyacademy.com, along with a link to our Facebook and LinkedIn pages, where we discuss our podcasts, and we’d love to discuss your thoughts and experiences there. If you’re interested in learning more about protecting animals, subscribe to the show so you get every episode when it comes out. If you have any questions on this or any other topic related to animal law, email them to podcast@animaladvocacyacademy.com, and we’ll make sure to get them answered. We’ll either email you back or feature them in a future episode, or both.
And remember, compassion is great, but compassionate action is infinitely better. Until next week, live with compassion.
That’s it for today. The Animal Advocate podcast is brought to you by the Animal Advocacy Academy. You can find episodes and show notes at animaladvocacyacademy.com along with a link to our Facebook and LinkedIn pages where we discuss our podcasts and we’d love to discuss your thoughts and experiences there. If you’re interested in learning more about protecting animals, subscribe to the show so you get every episode when it comes out. If you have any questions on this or any other topic, related to animal law, email them to podcast@animaladvocacyacademy.com and we’ll make sure to get them answered. We’ll either email you back or feature them in a future episode, or both. And remember, compassion is great, but compassionate action is infinitely better. Until next week, Live With Compassion.`
